Drs Cameron and Pollnitz and a call for change.
A Post by Neil Hart on homosexuality, LGBT, lesbian and gay stuff and the Lutheran Church of Australia.
Paul Cameron responded to president Obama’s support for marriage equality on the Christian radio talk back program “Crosstalk”.
Normally, reader, I wouldn’t trouble you with some raving lunatic on a US radio show. This is a little different. Dr Paul Cameron was a main source quoted by the LCA’s own Dr Robert Pollnitz in his submission to Parliament opposing marriage equality. More on this later. Listen to some of Dr Cameron’s responses to questions from the interviewer and callers.
Full disclosure: The entire program went for 52 minutes. I have done a cut and paste job to isolate some of the more objectionable comments made by Cameron. My editing has not done anything to distort what the Dr says or make him appear in a bad light. He does that all on his own. The full program can be heard here.
So…quick recap…
Obama and the Secretary of Education have probably been involved in “homosexual acts”. Like all homosexuals, this 24/7 sin so consumes their minds that it is all they can think about. It has confused Obama’s election strategy and effected the funding priorities of the government. Obama’s administration and their homosexual agenda is such that they will not rest until “every little boy grabs his ankles”. The only effective way to protect our children is to throw homosexual miscreants into gaol.
Did i miss anything?…oh yeh…”winning people to Jesus Christ, (they) wholeheartedly recommend.” That’s nice.
Now, back to Dr Pollnitz.
I first made contact with Dr Pollnitz when I commented on an 2003 article he had written in the Lutheran as the head of the Church’s Committee on Social and Bio-ethical Questions. In my subsequent correspondence with Dr Pollnitz he made the following comment.
I am concerned that such children (gender confused 10-18 year olds) can be targeted by militant homosexuals and encouraged to think of themselves as gay/lesbian.
Fear of militant gays whose supposed objective is to make our teenagers gay is an unworthy attitude for the head of a commission go take into official LCA discussions on homosexuality. I believe it shows that Dr Pollnitz’s differences with the likes of Cameron are more a matter of degree than of kind. My concerns are amplified by Dr Pollnitz’s recent use of Cameron as a major source for some of his offensive statements in his anti-gay Government submission. With this type of uncritical thinking on the part of an influential church leader I find it little wonder that we continues to make public statements that embarrass the church and bring dishonour to the name of our Lord.
I believe that Dr Pollnitz should consider voluntarily removing himself from the position of chair of the CSBQ. The gay people in the LCA, the people who Dr Pollnitz represents and has power over, deserve better than a person who is so suspicious of them. The fact that this call needs to be made is indeed sad. I understand that Dr Pollnitz’s past service to the LCA has been admirable. But the needs of the LGBT members of the church stand above the feelings of one person.
Dr Pollnitz. Thankyou for your service. Perhaps it is time to give someone else a go.
Neil
One of your key arguments for requesting the Dr Pollnitz excuse himself from his position is that he embarrasses the church and brings dishonor to God. The recent closure of the LCA list and the reason for it was a clear example that what the church thinks is embarrassing , is different to what the rest of the world thinks. Thus it is OK for the church to spout this misinformation, to scapegoat sectors of the society, condem people to the eternal hellfires of damnation, to be bigots and crazies. The fact is, you cannot sue the church for being bigoted, yet. Therefore bigoted hateful comments do not embarrass the church.
I would argue that the church believes that it is people like you, Neil, who embarrass the church. You are promoting disunity, you are stirring up the people and you may give the media ammunition to put us into the media light. Or worse, you may even give people ideas of how to sue one another. The Christmas speech of our illustrious president made this very clear, when he attacked, not the Pollnitzes of the church but the Neil’s that were blogging and using the media for ways that do not bring love and peace to the kingdom of God.
Another example of “logic” vs “theologic” if you ask me
I’d be embarrassed to be a member of a church that doesn’t encourage questioning beliefs, that happily discriminates against people based on gender and sexuality; that is so myopic that it can’t recognize when it’s wrong or out of step; that can’t see the increasingly empty pews on a Sunday or understand why that’s happening; that preaches love but practices hate; that refuses to promote a gathering of people who want to talk about being progressive.
Keep going Neil. Embarrass them into recognition of their shame. The squeaky wheel gets the oil……
As some of you know I have recently changed my opinion on this issue – I would say I was the middle ground – love the sinner hate the sin kind of guy. I didn’t think I could ever change this opinion, after all my opinions are God’s opinions (whether he likes it or not). The people that finally tipped me over the edge were not the “pro gay” people but those that argued against. We have our own “Cameron” in Australia. I have commented on his blog a few times because the feeling I get from his writing is extremely dark – he doesn’t publish other opinions and reserves the right to edit them if he wishes. One comment really disturbed me so I thought I’d post it.
1. I too am a christian and I used to believe that same as you, but just last year my own son, Jeremiah, took his life because he was gay and knew that none of his friends or me and my wife would accept him.
I have since then changed my position on the issue, I would have much rathered I have my son with me today and for him to be able to face gods judgement and have a chance to repent, than for him to have taken his own life and go straight into satans lair.
I’m sorry to see that you all feel that love is a bad thing. There isn’t much of it left in the world and I say we should promote as much love as possible, whether that be heterosexual love or homosexual love. You say that it will harm our children to know that it’s okay to be gay, in fact the opposite is true.
I hope that everyone here takes a good look at what they’re saying and how they speak to their own children. For me it was too late, but it’s not too late for you. Only God can pass judgement on others, it is not up to us to do so.
Michael Sutherland
Thanks Michael
We can all sympathise and pray for this, as it is a difficult matter indeed. But it is quite remiss of you to take a personal tragedy and seek to get political mileage out of it, to push an agenda, or to seek to lay a guilt trip on those who disagree with you. I and my readers know nothing of your situation so of course we cannot comment on it. No one begrudges your concerns over what happened, but I for one must still call your bluff.
The biblical truth on homosexuality did not result in this sad situation. So don’t seek to make us somehow responsible……
Bill Muehlenberg
1. What a sad indictment on those who are loving and kind, given to support and generosity toward those who would seek acceptance and love in our amazing land.
What a sad, cruel, nasty piece of writing.
I am presuming, in days of yore you would have railed against women voting, having rights over their own bodies, over the bringing of our indigenous brothers and sisters into our midst ( for I was born when Aboriginal children were not allowed into the local swimming pool, because of ‘good Christian folk’) and you would probably be on the side of maintaining the status quo on slavery and belief in eugenics all lead by the religious.
Educate yourself. Learn the true meaning of ‘love’.
(I do not expect this post to be published)
Annie Elizabeth
2. Bill Muehlenberg4.12.11 / 2pm
Thanks Annie
Yes you are right about one thing: I normally would not post a comment like this, since it is loaded with ad hominem attacks, straw men and other bizarre logical fallacies.
And I would like to think I am educated on this issue. I have just penned an entire book on this, with over 700 footnotes. How many books have you written on the subject?
And if we want to know the true meaning of love, we of course must go to the true source of love. Biblical love is always about willing the highest good for the other person, not allowing them to wallow in sin, addiction and death. Love means telling people the truth, and seeking to set them free from their dead end lifestyles. Love means caring enough about others to not lie to them. Love means protecting our children, our families and our society, as well as the institution of marriage.
Bill Muehlenberg, CultureWatch
Thanks Bill for your amazing love towards Michael who lost his son. Your wisdom also astounds me, imagine….700 footnotes and I haven’t penned a single book.
sigh :’(
that is precisely the point I am making Neil.It is Gods word.He is a righteous and holy God who doesn’t know sin.He is uncreated and exists outside time and spatial considerations.Who Are we mere mortals to question with our fallible sinfull reason. You and your writers appeal to our human logic but it is fatally flawed and can only know in part. look at Gods speach to Job after Job had spoke to his cynical and unsympathetic Friends who had know idea as to what was going on or why Job on the face of it was going through such trials of suffering and judgement. he challenges them and it can be said like this…Who can know the mind of God…. man certainly cant because he doesnt have access to the mind or counsels of God.At best then our logic is seriously flawed because it doesnt have all the information and at worse it will lead us into error places and paths of out and out wrong and evil and lead us directly into Satans snares and traps like a big ol cod fish.
Seriously Kevin? You hold on to some sections of scripture and completely disregard others, you give no basis or reason for your arbitrary selectivity, and then you say…”who is to question the mind of God:??? Kevin, you are the one who has selected some passages and not others. I am questioning YOUR mind, not God’s. Why do you rigidly hold to the literal meaning of some verses and not others?
I could take offence to what you have written Kevin – “you and your writers appeal to our human logic” I’m tired of playing the I’m offended game, is that what you really think? If I thought God’s Word spoke one word against my opinion I would change it – I do think that God does ask us to use our reason to make judgements. There is something seriously flawed in the homosexual debate, whether I am right or wrong you can choose but please don’t tell me I am appealing to human logic. I do appreciate your comment and hope you can continue to discuss.
I hate making ammendments to what I have written but actually I am proud to be using human logic, God gifted me with a small measure and I appreciate it.
Kevin
I agree with your assessment of God, a being outside of space and time and thus beyond our comprehension. However, we’re I think the differences arise is on the understanding of scripture. You appear to consider it to be the true word of God, yet what you ignore is the fact that this was NOT the dictated word of God. The bible is not a verbatim account of what God has said. Rather, and this is part of the understanding of mainstream Christianity (including Lutherans), Scripture is “inspired” by God. this means that these sinful flawed creatures called humans, were inspired by God and/or had a God experience. This inspiration and or experience was then translated into words, which were then passed on through stories for hundreds of years, before they were written down by other people. Clearly, there is plenty of opportunity for the story to have been embellished or modified depending on the person re-telling it and their own understanding of that story.
This then, is what scripture is and it is our duty to try and make meaning from it. However, to read it literally and then to claim that one knows what God wants, is to completely contradict the very first premise (which you also made), I.e. we will never be able to understand a being that is outside of space and time.
Ahhh… I can see the problem with your argument Karin…you used reason, logic and common sense. Oh ye of little faith! You should know better than that.
How about if I preface my posts with “thus says the Lord”?
Now ur talkin!… i mean…preaching…(woops…ur a woman)….I mean prophesying…whatever.
Pingback: Gay Marriage And Sex With BBQ And Icecream. | Lutheran Church of Australia: In my opinion.
Pingback: Homosexual Agenda and Protecting our Children. | Lutheran Church of Australia: In my opinion.
Pingback: CTICR. A Lack of Transparency and Credibility. | Lutheran Church of Australia: In my opinion.
Pingback: CTICR: A Lack of Transparency and Credibility. Part 2. | Lutheran Church of Australia: In my opinion.
I see that I have been accused of using logic and reason.What an interesting proposition this when in the New Testament ,in Paul’s epistles he tells that .faith is the sure and certain trust in things unseen.I take and accept everything that I believe through faith.Reason and logic never enter the equation.Faith is not science. Moses for example received the ten commandments verbally from God the second time that he went up the mountain.The first time God himself actually has the tablets already ready with the the commandments on them.There are numerous prophets who literally write down what is dictated to them by God.Some even have their divine calls delivered this way.It is now different in the New Testament where two of the Gospels are the direct word of related under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.John1 vs 1.ff.says and I quote:”In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.He was with God in the beginning.”This whole 1st section ending at verse 18 is one of the earliest creedal statetments found in the New Testament in the following way.For the law was given through Moses;grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.No one has seen God but God the One and Only who is at the Father’s side.”Who is this person who is being referred to here? It is none other than Jesus the Christ.For some to say what they did that there might be embellishments,dare I say it mistakes or worse that we know better than what God himself does through what he has recorded in the Scriptures for us, as his word to what is word says,is quite wrong and treading on the quicksands of modernistic humanism with all it’s accompanying lies and deceipt’s.It is not For us to interpret them but to understand them by using sacred Scripture to interpret and reveal to us all that God says.Our Human nature wasn’t just tainted partially in the Fall.It was totally subverted by Satan’s Machiavellian trickery and lies and by man’s weakness and failure to follow what God had said to Adam regarding the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the centre of the Garden.For Us to interpet it in the way that it has been suggest above is to fall into the same trap as Adam and Eve did,which also incidentally is in similar line of thought that Satan used with Jesus whilst he was in the wilderness.It is the lie with the half truth
Don’t ever accuse me of accepting some parts of Scripture as opposed to not accepting others.I thought you knew me better than that Neil! I Have always accepted the full inspiration of God’s word.THIS IS ALSO THE FORMAL PRINCIPAL which underlies the traditional Lutheran understanding of ‘SOLA SCRIPTURA’.This was strictly adhered to by Luther and his co- reformers and the other writers of scripture understood this. Jesus Himself also repeatedly taught this formal principle .