OK church! Tell me why we dont have slaves anymore and ill listen to your views on homosexuality.
Another blog by neil hart on gay stuff and the Lutheran Church of Australia.
In a conversation with one or our regular commentators, i was reminded that CFW Walther is not recognised as an authority in the Lutheran Church (see previous blog). Fair enough. But i wasnt quoting him as an authority. I was quoting him as a recognised leader, a prominent and world wide resspected Lutheran at the time of the american civil war.
But, if its Lutheran authorities you want… its Lutheran authorities you will get.
Martin Chemnitz is described as the “second Martin” of the Lutheran Church had the following to say about slavery
“St. Paul describes the obedience of slaves by first explaining that they are not in slavery as the result of chance or human oppression, but that God Himself has established these differences of occupation. Therefore they are to be obedient to their masters for thus they are doing God’s will, for God has in this manner given their (the slaves’) labors to their masters. Consequently they need not doubt that God regards these labors as if having been done for Him.” (Loc. Th.II,64.)
Then there is Melanchthon. Luthers co-worker in the reformation.
“Aristotle rightfully denounces those who, based on their unlawful and excessive desire for freedom, indict the type of slavery accepted by international law. However, we would be greatly more justified to indict the ‘Schwaermers’ of our times, who under the guise of the Gospel are calling people to freedom, insisting that slavery is against the Gospel. Since we have already discussed this matter quite often, let it suffice for now to remind the reader that just as the Gospel does not negate the command: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ neither does it disapprove of masters or slavery, but rather confirms them by its witness and teaches that for the taming of the godless, human masters and slaves are necessary.
And then, of course, there is Luther himself.
Though the experts of the law contend that slavery is against natural law, for according to natural law all men are at first born free. However, because of sin, slavery is one of the bonds with which those who are mentally weak are held to their duties; and those who are reckless and irresponsible are controlled… The Holy Spirit Himself expressed that God does not abhor slavery among men, and that the wicked and wild must be held in check and punished with the yoke of slavery when He cursed Canaan: ‘Cursed be Canaan, slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers’ (Ex.9:25), and to Esau He said: ‘. . . the older shall be servant to the younger.
[The above selections were from issues of Lehre und Wehre (Doctrine and Defense), CFW Walther. published in 1863.]
No matter which way you look at it, Our Church Fathers understood New testament scripture to be in support of slavery. scripture describes it as a part of a good and godly ordered society. It is linked to the fourth commandment and is enshrined in Old testament Law.
pause for thought…
We considered it sin! Slavery is sin!
That which Walther, Chemnitz, Melanchthon, Luther and The apostle Paul himself (ie…the Bible!) considered a good and gody ordering of society, we would now consider evil and sinful.
Sorry to labour the point here but just consider those differences…
Today we would describe the practise of slavery as working against God’s purposes.
Walther Chemnitz Melanchthon and Luther considered that those who were working to abolish slavery were working against gods purposes.
We abhore the practice of slavery today.
Walther and the others describe it as if it were a gift from God to humanity.
We would describe it as sin
They describe it as good.
See what has happened? as history has moved on, as the world has changed, so has our interepretation of scripture. even what we might call godly and what we might call sin has radically and fundamentally changed .
…pause for thought….
As the world has changed…so has our interepretation of scripture even to the extent of what we call godly and what we call sin.
What the bible describes as good and godly is now considered sinful and evil and (dare i say) against the will of God. history has and does and will always change the way we interpret scripture.
All that i am asking for, dear reader, is an honest acknowledgement of this fact. and with that acknowledgement the freedom to question the traditional understanding of and judgement against homosexuality.
The Holy Spirit continues to be active in society. God continues to bring justice and freedom to the enslaved and the oppressed. A loving , compassionate and just God was active in the 19th century bringing about changes in social attitudes to slavery. This happened even though it seemed to go against the clear direction of scripture. Sadly, God had to work that change in the face of enormous opposition from his church.
That same God has been active in the 19th and early 20 centuries brining freedom and equal rights to women in society even though it seemed to go against the clear teachings of the Bible. Once again, God did this in the face of enormous opposition from his church.
Today, i believe that God is bringing social change, justice, acceptance and equality under the law to Gay and Lesbian people. This is happening even though it seems to go against what many consider to be the clear word of God in the Bible. So, sadly, God is once again working this change in the face of enormous opposition from his church.
This time…I’m siding with the love, compassion and justice of God.
Neil, you have described the situation very well. Paul, Luther and Melanchthon (so many consonants all together!) all have feet of clay, despite being inspired – they were humans after all. We posted on the same theme: http://katieandmartin.wordpress.com/2011/10/15/dear-dr-laura/
Without education we are likely to be conscripted to the violent waves of those who unquestioningly accept the written words of documents of faith from any religion. Thankfully, with an education that gives us the ability to critically question everything, we can arrive at the core of faith and still believe. A faith that is critically questioned is likely to be stronger than an unthinking faith.
We should doubt the violence of the Scriptures and church fathers towards slaves, towards women and towards those of other sexualities. We should doubt such texts, yet we can still believe in the saving grace of a God who gives up God’s life for our sake.
Such a faith is not based on texts of violence. Rather it is based on those texts that ring true to who Jesus showed himself to be.
yes yes and yes
thats the point isnt it. we worship the living Lord Jesus Christ, not the book that points to him.
that’s the quote that’s going around at the moment isn’t it? “The Word is a person” so when we turn to the word we are turning to Jesus. Something like that anyway.
hang on got it wrong, this is the quote: “Truth is not a teaching. Truth is a person.”
Often when MEN write – they add violence to satisfy their testosterone driven needs. I prefer to believe in God’s love and grace rather then the printed letters of the Word coz I know it was interpreted by more then one testosterone filled male! Has there ever been a bible translated by women?
your views align great with that movie “for the bible tells me so”
- As in you cannot take your interpretation of something that has been translated many times over as black and white.
- Its even sadder that it is used to excuse and teach hatred.
yeh…i saw that movie about 2 years ago…very good presentation of the issues from intimate family perspectives. every christian family who has a gay or lesbian son/ daughter/ sibling should get hold of it. (probably all James Dobson fans too :P )
Hey Neil, Been following your blogs carefully so i thought it was about time i replied. This is just my personal opinions on Slavery and Sexuality. Firstly i feel that the scriptures were written in a time when slavery was a normal part of society, so, although inspired by God, the scriptures were still written by man therefore the constraints of society would (to me) naturally be included within the scriptures. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since it was written. Civilization moves on over the centuries, it grows, it matures (to a certain extent), it has a better moral understanding, it is better educated. I personally believe that controlling another persons role in life as well as their thoughts is wrong. People within society are individuals with individual thoughts and paths and should be respected as such. But within me there is a line that should not be crossed……and that would be that it does not harm or bring down anyone else in society. Secondly, i don’t think an individuals sexuality should be the question here, but it should be the ‘intent’ that they establish a relationship. Whether it be man/man, woman/woman or woman/man. I feel the love and respect that two individuals have for each other and they wish to express this love to each other both physically and emotionally, then this union should be respected and supported. My thoughts are that this is morally good. Where there is abuse involved and an individuals rights are being abused, then this is NOT morally good and should not be supported. The key to me is to treat others the way you would want ot be treated yourself……..with love and respect.
If the scriptures are the inspired word of God, what is to say that this is not happening now.
Hope you all can understand what i am trying to express, these are just my individual thoughts on the matters at hand.
yeh…you make good and clear points man. the whole thing about love being primary has got a lot of Jesus in it , i reckon. the idea that god’s inspiration continues in society today (your last point) has plenty of theological support. Its called the “continuing revelation” its mainly a Roman Catholic thing (although they understand that God’s inspiration continues to work through the popes statements. im pretty unconvinced about THAT!) but yeh… i think that god continues to work through the good motives and desires of people in society to bring about his good purposes.
The whole reason im comparing slavery and homosexuality is to show that, sometimes, we get things wrong when we read scripture and sometimes, our understanding of Gods eternal truth can change in different cultures and different times… like slavery…so with homosexuality….
Thanx for reading…..and commenting. good t hear from you.
Seems to me it’s all pretty simple as Jesus said, for the Bible tells me so. “When the spirit of truth comes he will guide you into all the truth…. and he will tell you what is yet to come” (Jn 16:13) In other words the disciples didn’t have it all together. “Peter you are a bit wrong” snapped Paul. “Martin you were a bit wrong,” so say all of us. Christianity is not a big lump dropped on us but a process to be worked through – the history of the faith affirms this. That’s why we study church history isn’t it – to see evidence of the Holy Spirit at work sometimes in spite of Christians? We do believe in a Holy Spirit that still flutters around a bit don’t we?
So why are we LCAers determined to spend our energy dragging around a smelly lump of ethical theology that our cultural traditions and human prejudices and insecurities dropped on us and which has well and truly passed its use-by date. So now say all of us, “LCA you are a bit wrong – move!”
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